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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 17:20:00 -
[1]
Not sure why anyone would be surprised about the fact that there is massive opposition to these changes from 0.0 alliances who have currently covered the map with a static system of fortifications that cheaply cyno-jam and deny any realistic danger to their holdings while letting them sit back and collect income with less overall risk than the mission-runners in hisec suffer from can-flippers and the occasional suicide ganks.
The purpose of Dominion is to make 0.0 more interesting, more dynamic and more cut-throat once again. You want these huge spawling alliances to rationalize their holdings and retract down to more realistic holdings without spamming cyno-jammers and jump-bridges over half the map.
Only significant issue I'm disappointed with is the lack of cost escalation on multiple claims (or perhaps geographical distance from a given alliance "capital system"). I'd like to see alliances nominate x system as their "capital" and use that a baseline low multiplier upkeep cost - with the expense increasing on distance from that capital system.
Basically It'd be relatively inexpensive to upgrade and cyno jam an alliances core system but trying to do every system around within 10 jumps should be utterly impossible to afford and sustain on the current economy. But that takes a lot of work on the juggling of figures and I guess there are concerns about how this could be "gamed" with multiple alt alliances (as the Goons have already promised to do).
I guess this is what leaves us with the current rather blunt instrument of fixed charges that must be high or it makes Dominion irrelevant (ie cyno jammers continue to be everywhere) while leaving a problem for genuinely new entities looking to get into 0.0 (not that there are many of these at the moment since everyone needs to be a pet of someone for defense against the uber naptrain).
Still, ultimately people need to realize that this expansion is not just about providing nice things for sitting 0.0 alliances. Its about making the game board far more dynamic and addressing the things that have stagnated the 0.0 game and turned it into a deeply boring stasis over the last six months. Eve the game needs the 0.0 endgame to be harder for the players and for it to be more effort to hold a space empire. At the moment 0.0 conquest is a NAP-everything and CYNOJAM-everything no-brainer. There are no strategic choices or compromises to be made.
By making empire conquest expensive they are forcing you to make choices about whether you can really justify cyno-jamming x,y,z systems within 5-10 jumps of your HQ. ThatĘs interesting and it will ultimately bring cost back into the equation of alliance-warfare. I remember the days when eve wars could be won by bankrupting the enemy alliance and believe me that was a far better game than the current reality where clicking the "disband alliance" button is the only way to win.
Its going to be painful for some, and there will be an epic amount of moaning and groaning from those powers who have gotten way too used to being the afk-aristocracy of Eve with a landscape of cyno-jammers defending their territory without player input - but its a needed change and if some people ragequit and run level4 missions in protest so be it.
Those with the guts and talent to adjust will do what eve players have done since the beginning of the server. They'll work with the game and find ways to play it. Its time for the 0.0 alliances to toughen up and work for their alliance tags on the map.
Expansions can hurt playstyles, gameplay techniques and individual player, corp and alliance isk stability. They have been doing this since the first patches in 2003. But players adapt or they quit - the game goes on. Eve won't crash and burn because the current crop of cotten-wool-cosseted space poltroons quit their empires in protest at needing to adopt a rational funding regime to support their territorial holdings that require them to put ships in space.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 17:51:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: EvilweaselFinance
Originally by: Jade Constantine
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0.0 isn't an e-brothel why did you think anyone cared what you have to say
Given this is about your alliance's standard of debate on the issue I suspect your sentiment is mirrored by those responsible for balancing the expansion at this point 
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:40:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Hertford
I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread. But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?
To be brutal. This thread is pretty much the same 20 people repeating "waaa-waaaa-it's-not-fair-waaaaa!" again and again and again interspaced with some more spam. As I said earlier - you guys are missing the point with Dominion. Its not about preserving the status quo its about blowing the status quo into a thousand little pieces and seeing what happens to 0.0 without an omni cyno-jammer security blanket for its current occupants.
You will need to struggle to pay upkeeps in Dominion. Thats the point. You will need to retract the size of your claims and focus to keep your head above water. You will need to adapt or die and if you can't survive there will be other players and player entities that can.
The status quo is boring and deeply unattractive. Eve 0.0 endgame needs to change.
Not sure how I can explain that any better for you.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 19:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Hertford
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Hertford
I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread. But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?
To be brutal. This thread is pretty much the same 20 people repeating "waaa-waaaa-it's-not-fair-waaaaa!" again and again and again interspaced with some more spam. As I said earlier - you guys are missing the point with Dominion. Its not about preserving the status quo its about blowing the status quo into a thousand little pieces and seeing what happens to 0.0 without an omni cyno-jammer security blanket for its current occupants.
You will need to struggle to pay upkeeps in Dominion. Thats the point. You will need to retract the size of your claims and focus to keep your head above water. You will need to adapt or die and if you can't survive there will be other players and player entities that can.
The status quo is boring and deeply unattractive. Eve 0.0 endgame needs to change.
Not sure how I can explain that any better for you.
In other words, to engage in Eve's "endgame pvp experience", you need to grind PvE content. Yes, that's going to really improve things. I can see the queues of Empire dwellers lining up at 0.0 chokepoints already ready to move into 0.0.
Yes you will need to have a worker-caste alliance peon out in the fields gathering isk to pay your rents that will make pvp content for raiders and defenders (if you intend to defend them). This is far superior to the current model where your income comes from moon pos that are invulnerable to small gang intediction and there is literally no way to scorch the earth on conquest.
If you don't like the new system you are free to go back to empire and run the level4s you are talking about. I'm sure other people will be happy to take your vacated space and actually fight for it.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:56:00 -
[5]
Funny how the Goonswarm ability to debate this hits a brick wall and falls down on its face the moment they are actually presented with an alternative viewpoint.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Zemi Dahut
You really don't understand what the problem is here which is really not surprising. You should probably have stayed out of this thread since all you're doing is reminding everyone why you failed as a CSM.
Actually Dominion is looking like a pretty good success for my time on the CSM right now
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:18:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Zemi Dahut
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Zemi Dahut
You really don't understand what the problem is here which is really not surprising. You should probably have stayed out of this thread since all you're doing is reminding everyone why you failed as a CSM.
Actually Dominion is looking like a pretty good success for my time on the CSM right now
What, making 0.0 less accessible to small alliances and gangs? You're really this delusional?
You need to stop listening to the spam and consider the arguments. You have it directly backwards. Losing the landscape of cyno-jammers and omni-claims will make 0.0 much more accessible for small gang pvp.
As indeed will the increased need for standing alliances to earn money in actual space.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 20:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Freidrich Hayek
And small-gang PvP flourishes in the prime isk-generating center of... Motsu.
If Motsu was 0.0 it would be hog-heaven.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 21:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid
Originally by: Honest Smedley
Originally by: Itzena
YES OR NO: Due to the increased risk and logistics effort required, 0.0 should be more - not as - profitable (in raw isk/h) than highsec L4 mission running.
To answer the isk/hr question you pose:
For the average corporation member within an alliance? Not necessarily.
if 0.0 should not be as profitable for the average corp member as highsec is, 0.0 is worthless.
Your viewpoint is too narrow.
0.0 is an open PVP zone and this is a huge draw. Quite a lot of content (bombs, bubbles, advanced building etc) is only usuable in 0.0. Additionally it is the part of the game where those seeking fame and glory can write their name onto the map and gain whatever boasting rights come from that deed.
This stuff has little to do with isk and you are wrong to look at a tight level4/0.0 income comparison here.
0.0 is where you go as an territorial leader when you want to leave an imperialist legacy in the legend of eve really.
If all you care about is profit and isk-making then you probably shouldn't have left the hisec mission hubs in the first place.
True Knowledge |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 22:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
I read 67 pages of this, and the first thing I have to post when I get to the bottom of it is...a post making fun of Jade Constantine. FML.
That might be worth a couple of dozen goon votes for you Herschel. But its a very long way from convincing me that you have a point.
0.0 becomes more interesting when the existing power-blocs need to struggle for their existence and make significant strategic choices on spending their income.
Still, if CCP hangs tough and sticks to their guns I'll guess we'll see in a month or two.
If they fold and reduce rents to a nominal nonsense fee then nothing will change and 0.0 stays the same as it has for the last year.
Ultimately this is simply one of those moments in the history of Eve that people will need to adapt or die. (or whine against the "nerf"). Time will tell which way was the best option.
Coming out "against" the Dominion rent model is probably good for a few votes for you though Herschel so don't let me stop you
True Knowledge |
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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.11.08 22:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sethur Blackcoat
You still haven't given a reason why living in 0.0 should be harder and less profitable than highsec apart from "I expect everyone to be so narcissistic as to spend a lot of money/be willing to earn less money for nothing but seeing his alliance name on an autogenerated sov map."
Granted its difficult to find in the torrent of spam but I have given you plenty of reasons in previous posts. If you click on my avatar to the left of the message you can read back. Have fun!
True Knowledge |
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